Margaret Williams possible 1861 census

Williams, Margaret 1

Birth Name Williams, Margaret
Birth Name Thomas, Margaret 1
Gramps ID I0327
Gender female
Age at Death 79 years, 9 months, 27 days

Events

Event Date Place Description Sources
Birth 1850-04-12 Cefn Coed, Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, UK   2 3
Event Note

I am making the assumption that the names of Margaret and Elizabeth are mixed up on the 1851 census. The names are in the wrong order, anyway.

Residence (Unknown) 1851-03-30 High Street, Cefn Coed   4
Event Note

I am making the assumption that the names of Margaret and Elizabeth are mixed up on the 1851 census. The names are in the wrong order, anyway.

Residence 1861-04-07 George Inn, 139 High Street, Cefn Coed   5
Residence from 1871-04-02 to 1873-11-01 George Inn, 139 High Street, Cefn Coed   6 7
Residence 1881-04-03 The Rising Sun Inn, 133 High Street, Cefn Coed   8
Event Note

This must be the right Margaret, because she is living with Mary Ann Jones of the right age, she has the right age, Mary Ann is listed as the granddaugheter of Margaret's mother which would make her Margaret's niece, it's the same house...

Residence 1889-09-11 The Rising Sun Inn, 133 High Street, Cefn Coed   9
Residence 1891-04-05 The Rising Sun Inn, 133 High Street, Cefn Coed   10 11
Occupation 1891-04-05   Grocer 10
Court Records 1895-10-03   Assaulted 12
Residence 1901-03-31 The Rising Sun Inn, 133 High Street, Cefn Coed   13
Residence 1911-04-02 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed   2
Occupation 1911-04-02   Grocer 2
Occupation 1912 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed Grocer 11
Residence 1925-04-11 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed   14
Residence before 1930-02-09 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed   15
Occupation 1926 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed   11
Death 1930-02-09 Rising Sun Stores, 73 High Street, Cefn Coed   15 16 17
Burial 1930-02-12 St Gwynno’s Church, Vaynor, Glamorgan, UK   16
Event Note

EJW looked for the grave in Oct 2011 and couldn't find it.

Probate 1930-08-15 London to reverend Lewis Davis and Thomas Jones 15
Event Note

We can be confident that this is the right Margaret Thomas because the JTW solicitor's letter mentions Reverend Lewis Davies as the surviving executor.
The other must have been Thomas Jones, engraver, who must have died between 9 Feb 1930 and 5 Oct 1932. Why would probate have been granted in London?

The estate was £2432 13s 11d. A tidy sum but not a fortune once split among the inheritors.

Will 1925-04-25     17

Parents

Relation to main person Name Birth date Death date Relation within this family (if not by birth)
Father Williams, Thomas [I0113]between 1801-04-03 and 1804-04-07before 1877-12-00
Mother Davies, Eliza [I0576]between 1811-04-04 and 1813-04-03
    Sister     Williams, Sarah [I0111] between 1834 and 1837 1872-03-07
    Brother     Williams, Thomas [I0584] between 1840-03-31 and 1841-03-30
    Sister     Williams, Eliza [I0580] between 1842-04-03 and 1844-04-02
    Sister     Williams, Caroline [I0577] between 1844-04-08 and 1845-04-07
    Brother     Williams, John [I0581] between 1847-04-03 and 1848-04-02 after 1925-04-25
         Williams, Margaret [I0327] 1850-04-12 1930-02-09
    Brother     Williams, William Hewitt [I0097] between 1850-04-01 and 1852-03-31 after 1930-02-15

Families

    Family of Thomas, William Richard and Williams, Margaret [F0112]
Unknown Partner Thomas, William Richard [I0328] ( * between 1849-04-01 and 1850-03-31 + about 1902 )
   
Event Date Place Description Sources
Marriage 1889-09-11 St Gwynno’s Church, Vaynor, Glamorgan, UK   15 9
Event Note

Thomas Jones
William ?R ?Berrysomething?
Emily Kate Hand
were witnesses.

Media

Margaret Williams possible 1861 census

Margaret Williams possible 1861 census
Margaret Williams possible 1861 census 2

Margaret Williams possible 1861 census 2
Eliza Williams 1851 census

Eliza Williams 1851 census
Margaret Williams possible 1871 census

Margaret Williams possible 1871 census

Narrative

Is it significant that Margaret Thomas nee Williams lived in Cefn Coed high street? There are Charlie's family living all up and down the street. So was JTW's mother related to Charlie's family after all?

Narrative

Catherine Lewis born about 1882 in Cefn Coed is a servant in 1901 census.
Mary Hudson born about 1876 is a servant in the 1891 census.

Mary Thomas born in Cefn Coed about 1857 is a servant in both the 1881 censuses.

Hannah Evans born in Vaynor about 1844 is a servant in 1861.

Narrative

Why is neither son, who would be 5 and 12, at home in the 1891 census? Where are they?

Narrative

Is Margaret Mose, daughter of Benjamin Thomas of Merthyr, married to John Mose, anything to do with the "Mary Moses" of the JTW letter? She's in the 1881 census.

Narrative

Cannot find Margaret in the 1881 census, despite the fact that Harry Thomas, son, should have been 2 then. But I do find a William R Thomas living at 75 High Street, Cefn Coed. He's a miner married to Thomasine, and they have a son Henry, who's 2. So is Harry/Henry actually Margaret's stepson? That could explain why Margaret didn't leave them anything, and why the children weren't living with them in 1891.

Here's a possible death record for Thomasine:
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915 about Thomasine Thomas
Name: Thomasine Thomas
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 38
District: Merthyr Tydfil
County: Breconshire, Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 11a
Page: 335

and that age matches William R Thomas's wife in the 1881 census. Here is a possible marriage for Thomasine and William:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1868 (>99%)
Dawkins Thomasine Merthyr Tydfil 11a 443
James Ann Merthyr Tydfil 11a 443
Thomas William Merthyr Tydfil 11a 443
Williams Joshua Merthyr Tydfil 11a 443
and Thomasine and William's eldest child was born about 1868, so that matches.

 

So here is a possible marriage for Margaret and William:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
Preece Tracy William Merthyr T. 11a 788
Thomas William Richard Merthyr T. 11a 788
Watkins Sarah Elizabeth Merthyr Tydfil 11a 788
WILLIAMS Margaret Merthyr T 11a 788

which matches the long-guessed surname of Sarah, allegedly Margaret's sister.

Narrative

Could this be Margaret in 1881? I can't get at the census image!

1881 census - household transcription

Person: WILLIAMS, Margt
Address: 19, Long Row, Merthyr Tydfil

Cost:
Transcriptions are free for this set of records. You will be charged 5 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.

census search results 1881 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation
Disability Where Born Original
census
image
WILLIAMS, Mary Head Widow F 57 1824
Merthyr Tydfil
Glamorganshire
Wales VIEW
WILLIAMS, Margt Daughter Single F 32 1849 Charwoman
Merthyr Tydfil
Glamorganshire
Wales VIEW
WILLIAMS, John Son Single M 23 1858 Puddler In Iron Wks
Merthyr Tydfil
Glamorganshire
Wales VIEW
WILLIAMS, William Son Single M 20 1861 Underground Haulier
Merthyr Tydfil
Glamorganshire
Wales VIEW
WILLIAMS, Dd Grand Son Single M 2 1879
Merthyr Tydfil
Glamorganshire
Wales VIEW
RG number:
RG11 Piece:
5310 Folio:
55 Page:
5

Registration District:
Merthyr Tydfil Sub District:
Lower Merthyr Tydfil Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish:
Merthyr Tydfil Municipal Borough:
Address:
19, Long Row, Merthyr Tydfil County:
Glamorganshire

Narrative

Cannot relaibly find Margaret in 1871 or 1861. There are no Margarets living with Sarahs that are older in 1861.

Narrative

What about the George Inn census records for 1861 and 1871? Margaret there is the right age. Eliza runs a grocery. The George is in High Street Cefn where everything else happens.

 

Plus - intriguingly - the 1861 Margaret in the George has a brother, William, born in Vaynor 9 years before, about 1852. And Charlie Williams's father is William Williams, born about 1852. And they're both known to have fathers named Thomas Williams who were grocers.

Which would make sense if the 1868 marriage certificate between Sarah Williams and William Williams was a phony, because that says that Sarah is only 21, lived in Caeharris, and her father is a pit hitcher.

That would mean I've been looking for the wrong sarah williams. In 1871, she'd have been 34.

A caroline Williams, born at the right time, married Aaron Jones, and appears in the 1871 census with him. In 1881, she's head of hte family, and a polly jones is mentioned, but ages and names seem mixed up. There's a Thomas Jones born about 1867. In 1891, Caroline has moved back into the George Inn and is running the palce, and Thomas is living with her. I can't find her after that.

In 1911, a Thomas Jones, born about the right time, is running - guess what - the Morlais Castle Inn, 32 Pant Road. Spooky, or what? That's where JTW was (allegedly) born.

Pedigree

  1. Williams, Thomas [I0113]
    1. Davies, Eliza [I0576]
      1. Williams, Sarah [I0111]
      2. Williams, Thomas [I0584]
      3. Williams, Eliza [I0580]
      4. Williams, Caroline [I0577]
      5. Williams, John [I0581]
      6. Williams, Margaret
        1. Thomas, William Richard [I0328]
      7. Williams, William Hewitt [I0097]

Ancestors

Source References

  1. JTW Solicitor's letter 1932 [S0179]
  2. Margaret Thomas 1911 census [S0592]
  3. Margaret Williams birth certificate [S0719]
  4. Eliza Williams 1851 census [S0598]
  5. Margaret Williams 1861 census [S0597]
  6. Margaret Williams 1871 census [S0596]
  7. George Inn Rental Ad [S0743]
  8. Margaret Williams 1881 census [S0595]
  9. Margaret Williams marriage certificate [S0613]
  10. Margaret Thomas 1891 census [S0594]
  11. Victorian Cefn directories [S0650]
  12. Assault at Rising Sun Inn [S0745]
  13. Margaret Thomas 1901 census [S0593]
  14. Mary Ann Jones Will [S0683]
  15. Margaret Thomas probate [S0591]
  16. Margaret Thomas Funeral report [S0645]
  17. Margaret Williams (latterly Thomas) will [S0682]